(no subject)

[the_ragnarok]

this concept has been conceived by takiki16 and bemusedlybespectacled, then i squeed about it a bunch with findundergrounddragoutofwater and, well.

so basically the idea is that in the D/s au there's this division - in the original concept it was only a thing for super rich americans, but findundergrounddragoutofwater and i expanded it to be a general society thing - where subs are divided to upstairs and downstairs subs.

upstairs subs are pretty. they are decorative and highly mannered and presentable. they are status symbols.

downstairs subs take the heavy punishment and do the heavy labor. they are the ones who get shared with other doms/households. they can serve as whipping boys/girls for upstairs subs.

if going for the wider-society thing, one can postulate subs who are sort of "in between", ones that became more common with the rise of the middle class - stairwell subs, who do white collar jobs.

to get fandom-specific, the original idea contained some nice Leverage headcanons, centralizing on downstairs sub Eliot who has strongly internalized the upstairs/downstairs division - of course he's the one who'll take the punishment, would it be better to let some pretty, delicate upstairs sub take it instead of him? and please let us consider: some upstairs sub catching Eliot's eye before he's about to be punished, the upstairs sub looking concerned if not horrified, and Eliot smiling to set them at ease.

other leverage character headcanons include Hardison who believes all subs should be upstairs subs; Parker who often goes undercover as an upstairs sub, but has a lot of experiences with doms treating her like a downstairs sub; and nonsexual mommy dom Sophie. and stairwell sub Nate.

for POI, there is a plethora of possible readings: John of course sees himself as a downstairs sub in a way very similar to Eliot. Harold can be a dom, or a stairwell sub, or made to be an upstairs sub and going slowly insane with boredom. (He can organize parties and pick nice outfits with the best of them!)

another thought we had was - upstairs subs are not supposed to have sex with anyone but their dom, they don't get shared, but they might have nonsexual romance with other upstairs subs and have that treated as cute and nonthreatening. So upstairs sub harold having courtly love with Grace, the upstairs sub from next door - consider john going on hands and knees so Harold can climb over him and kiss Grace through a window.

Comments

[zerah]

:D

[the_ragnarok]

oh, and of course - if we're going for the society wide idea, that tends to indicate there's at least twice as many subs as doms, which I think would be an interesting idea to look into :3

[the_ragnarok]

also also: in universe genres include "courtly love between upstairs subs" romance, "downstairs subs sacrificing themselves supposedly for their dom and household but subtextually very obviously doing it for an upstairs sub" inspiration literature, "downstairs subs doing upstairs sub" shock porn, and extremely taboo "downstairs subs topping their doms" porn

[takiki16]

(I am new to this platform, so if my comment shows up somewhere wonky or if I should be nesting this or if I'm hogging the chat, apologies to all)

I think findundergrounddragoutofwater was also poking around with how courting would work? Specifically, when subs chose their level (upstairs/stairwell/downstairs), and how they would be courted by doms?

If you conceive of this system as being a universal sub-class system that subs could use to express identity, rather than a way for a few rich abusive doms to divide a private harem, I was thinking that it is less about subs being *trained* into a category, and more about categories that sub eventually end up in as a result of their own kink and play preferences?

(although please subject this to as many darker interpretations as you want, where the dom controls more in categorization because i am a dumpster fire of angst)

Like...as subs begin the growing up process in this BDSM AU, and start actually coming of age in terms of puberty and sex and learning about play, they will eventually end up in one category or another by their preferences. Subs who become upstairs subs tend to prefer play that puts them at the center of positive romantic control and attention. They want to sleep IN the bed, rather than at the foot or on the floor. They generally do not prefer long periods of denial, or intense pain/impact play. If painplay or more intense kink is involved, their dom is right there with them at every step, whispering sweet nothings and telling them how cute and pretty and lovely they are. Think sugar baby rather than footstool, lapdog vs. guard dog.

Downstairs subs tend to correlate more with play that proves how much they can take for their dom, if that makes sense? Downstairs subs more commonly have humiliation or objectification kinks. They're the ones sleeping on the floor or at the foot of the bed, the one kneeling beside the chair in a dungeon rather than sitting in their dom's lap. Doms can be affectionate with their downstairs sub, but its less constant sweet fluff and more a firm hand at the end of a scene and a significant "good job, you did so well for me, let's go clean up." A lot more service subbing in the actual service (manual labor) sense, more likelihood of service topping or bottoming for an upstairs sub at a dom's orders.

Depending on region and culture and other things, subs are generally expected to have "chosen" or gravitated to upstairs/downstairs by a certain age, and reflect that in their body language so other subs and doms know how to be polite with them. Subs who do not choose are generally stigmatized as spinsters who cannot get doms to play with them for a variety of reasons

[takiki16]

On a fandom-specific note, re: the AMAZING image of John going down on hands and knees so Harold can step up and kiss Grace through the window...are any of them “single” in the context of this verse?

Cuz I’m wondering...two upstairs subs starting a romance would be fine in this verse, presumably. But the only relationships that receive formal legal or cultural/social validation are dom-sub ones? And a dom might be okay with another upstairs sub visiting theirs, but then again they might not. And they DEFINITELY wouldn’t be okay with a downstairs sub coming around at night trying to paw at their pet through the window.

SO...in the window kissing scenario...would either Grace, Harold, or John face consequences for this? Because Harold and Grace might not get punished, but John definitely will if they get caught...

[ardentintox]

This is BB on my Dreamwidth account - hello! I'm coming into this having only talked to Takiki about it, and I'm like half a season into POI, just as context.

I'm intrigued by the idea of it being a society-wide thing, though my thought is that you'd still need more than one sub for there to be a clear upstairs-downstairs division – what is upstairs if there is no downstairs to contrast? – which would necessitate being able to "afford" multiple subs. So even having the division at all is a status symbol, in that poorer doms are only in a relationship with one person and can't imagine having multiple ones, let alone ones that aren't supposed to work and just sit around looking pretty (a roommate or romantic partner who does nothing around the house? IN THIS ECONOMY?). Most relationships are probably not as cleanly striated, and involve elements of both (ex: a middle-class dom/sub couple doing some heavy painplay together but then go about their white collar jobs elsewhere).

Thus I can see it being more dom-driven than sub-driven, at least in theory, since the dom has to both choose to have multiple subs and also choose particular people to fit those roles. In reality it is probably more complex, with certain subs deliberately seeking out certain partners or acting a certain way in order to be "assigned" upstairs/downstairs. I can see some in-universe romcoms where the comedic element is that the dom thinks that he's organized the household according to his wishes, when secretly his two subs have decided for themselves who will be upstairs and downstairs and are letting him think that it's his own idea.

[antongarou]

Where are the switches here?

Also, John as the downstairs sub co-doms Harold and Grace decided would make a much better upstairs sub...

[takiki16]

ALSO QUESTION FOR FIC-WRITING PURPOSES:

Do you think that, in whatever universe where the staircase system of subs is used, the subs actually USE the words "upstairs/stairwell/downstairs?"

ardentintox had the idea that "upstairs/downstairs" was the commonly accepted modern slang terminology, but there were fancier official historical terms.

[takiki16]

ON A FANDOM-SPECIFIC NOTE: I was frantically backing up my tumblr while listening to random youtube covers, and the algorithm coughed up THIS subby masterpiece (original by Tracy Adkins, covered by Christian Kane, aka Eliot Spencer)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5FQdcuT-Xc

Lyrics: https://genius.com/Trace-adkins-happy-man-lyrics

And it is SUCH. A DOWNSTAIRS SUB SONG.

(and somehow now I just want a downstairs sub (PREFERRABLY ELIOT) singing this song for some reason or other. And there are some folks there who think AH YES, good and appropriate expression of downstairs love sentiments. And some folks who think that wow, maybe PROBLEMATIC for them to lean so hard into the traditional view of downstairs subs, they should be loved in their own way as well?)

(dealer's choice what the sub thinks)